The insights of Valentin Tomberg's Our Mother prayer adds essential elements to Sophian mythology: that the world's temptation has led the Mother into darkness, a tragedy and of immense pain to the Father, but that remembering the Mother and fighting against temptation can help to deliver all beings from the evil of her separation.
Yes, you're thinking of Michael Frensch's four volume series on Tomberg, two of which were biographies. Alas, there was talk of translating the biographies, but it didn't come to fruition. I wouldn't be able to take it up. Perhaps James Wetmore would. He and Michael Martin are good friends as Angelico has been publishing Michael's books. Hope all is well in Vancouver.
David, I remember now that Harrie Salman has written a biography of Tomberg published by Angelico in 2022 -- Valentin Tomberg and the Ecclesia Universalis: A Biography. I haven't seen it but it has some good reviews. Harrie has been an active member of the Tomberg working group in Europe.
Thank you for that information as I know Harrie is actively involved in many workshops in Scandinavia especially with Robert Powell. I deeply appreciate your spiritual book on nutrition for lack of better words to describe it, and all the other work you are doing That is much appreciated and blessings to you.
David, are you thinking of the essay on the Ten Commandments in the Covenant of the Heart book, later republished as Lazarus, Come Forth? James Wetmore with Angelico Press has now published a new translation of all the essays in the book. I haven't seen it, but know he worked hard to correct all of the errors in Covenant/Lazarus, of which there were many. I have published a book on spirituality and nutrition -- The Yogi Diet, Spirituality and the Question of Vegetarianism -- that draws on both Steiner and Tomberg. I hope to complete two more related books. I'm now working on Mother Cow, but slowly.
In my recent 2 part Notes of Aug 5 I published a discussion about Alexandria which included the roots of Sophia in Christian thought. An addendum to your excellent essay,
Aug 17·edited Aug 17Liked by The Druid Stares Back
You're probably familiar with David Bentley Hart's book *Tradition and Apocalypse*, right? He talks about the relative and ultimately arbitrary definition of what different churches have long called "Tradition" in much the same way that you are here.
In the "Bridge" lectures (14), Steiner speaks of the modern parallel between Osiris and Isis, and Christ and Sophia. "What was killed was not thrown into the Nile, like Osiris, and then later buried in the earth, but instead the Isis being, or divine wisdom, killed by Lucifer, was transplanted into cosmic space." And: "...we can find this Isis in her true form spread out in the beauty of the cosmos." And: "This Isis shines towards us from the cosmos in an aura of many luminous colours..."
I've been wrestling with this for a while now. It feels true, but I can't quite say how. Lots of this lecture feels very Blakeian though. How about: "We must set out to work on Luciferic science and seek the coffin of Isis there"?
Sorry to quote lots, but I could lift almost any sentence and it rings with power. "We do not lack Christ. What we lack is the Isis of Christ, the Sophia of Christ."
You're clearly far wider read than me, Michael. Are you able to shed any light on this stuff?
I like those lectures too. I think Steiner is speaking out of imagination there--and it's not exactly easy to follow him because we want to instinctively contextualize it within what we know. Steiner is like Blake or Boehme in that to understand any of them, you need to learn a brand new language--and most people don't have the energy! Especially these days. Anyway, I think he's right. One way to think about "killed by Lucifer," for me anyway, is to think that the sophianic is obscured by our egocentricity. But, as usual with Steiner, his imaginations also work on multiple layers. Hopefully I didn't muddy thing any more!
Ha ha, yes and no! I've been reading Steiner for years, so I hope I'm at least acclimatized to his language. I think you're wrong in suggesting he was trying to write poetry, however. He was trying to write science, with clearly defined concepts. So Lucifer was a Being, not a metaphor for anything - and presumably Sophia too. What I was specifically wondering about though was his notion of Sophia (Isis) being cast into the heavens. Christ is now in and of the Earth, but Sophia is no longer. Does anything in Blake or Boehme chime with this idea?
Sorry...I was not suggesting he was writing poetry. But he was writing out of spiritual imagination (the way he understood it). I agree about Lucifer--but the way he speaks of Lucifer is in how he tries to influence us. I had a dream decades ago when Steiner told me: "You think you understand Lucifer and Ahriman, but you don't. The way it works is Lucifer seduces people and then delivers them to Ahriman." I eventually understood that he meant something like Lucifer promising freedom, but handing it over the Ahriman and the freedom becomes slavery. A good example, I think, is the trans thing or even the Covid vaccines: people are promised freedom ("You can finally be who you truly are!" "You'll be able to travel!"). But then they find out they're infertile or just signed up for a medical subscription service that would last for the rest of their lives.
I don't think Sophia is cast into the heavens. I think it works by a kind of etheric reversal: we think Sophia is in exile, but it's really we who are in exile.
On the other hand, as much as I love Steiner, I am not afraid to disagree with him from time to time. (I'd drop an emoji right now, but I'm on my laptop and not my phone so no Ahrimanic emojis are available.)
Yes, definitely the trans thing. It's like the Archons - is that your terminology? - are tempting us with stuff we're just not ready for. No wonder the young are so enamoured. And one world government? - an end to nationalistic division? What could feel more right, from a certain perspective?
That's an interesting take on the 'Sophia in exile' thing. I'm not actually sure what you mean, to be honest. But whether Sophia is exiled or whether we have been exiled from Sophia, the results are manifest.
Steiner wrong? How could you think it?😅 Well, he ain't the Pope - but still, I'm kind of fixated with his ideas in Bridge lecture 14. They've got a hold of me. Especially his notion of 'fluorescent heavens' and linking it with Goethe's colour theory. And was hoping there were parallels in other writers, but I guess not.
Luke 7:35 “Wisdom is proved right by her children”. I must contradict what appears to be your complete dismissal of Chrisitan Tradition as something relative. The same logic could be used about the traditions that you are teaching about Our Lady. The only thing arbitrary about any tradition is our experience of it. Our Lord tried to teach the religious elite this in Luke 7. They didn’t get it. They did not have the proper experience of tradition. They resisted this experience, they resisted her. Nothing has changed. Those that are her children do not resist her. Those that do have proven whose seed that they are (Gen. 3:15). It’s that simple. Even if we tried to resist her out of fear and ignorance, as a loving mother, she remains calling us back to her.
I ain't dimissin' nuthin'. lol. But what I am saying is "How do you know the tradition is the tradition?" What's the tradition that came before the tradition? I think we need to end up deconstructing the received idea of what tradition is--which is a good thing in my opinion.
I have had and continue to have very clear experience of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I just don’t get this Sophia stuff that means so much to you. Never encountered anything like it. Like some sort of Quadrinity. I always thought Christ was the wisdom of God in action. When I encountered Mary once it was a human presence, not some Uber Spiritual Being. I probably need a barebones, didactic,simple explanation of Sophiology to wrap my head around what you are saying.
As you'll see as I get toward the end, I think we see or feel or sense what we're conditioned (not necessarily in a bad way) to see. But Sophiology is pretty simple and straightforward. I hope.
Aug 15·edited Aug 17Liked by The Druid Stares Back
I guess I am a New Testament kind of guy, conditioned by its contingency. I get the impression you see it partially as an after product of a censorship, an incomplete tradition. In its imaginal realm this cosmic Sophia is not clearly encountered as far I can see unless you squeeze it into the Holy Spirit. Stephen filled with the Holy Spirit sees the glory of God with Jesus standing by him. The Trinitarian revelation in the baptism of Jesus, I could go on to more Trinitarian sendings and feelings in the NT that have no clear feeling or sensing of what you are talking about. So the NT is a limited conditioned tradition but not necessarily in a bad way? The writers being a product of a conditioning? A viewpoint you are welcome to have - I aim to practice friendship with all and when needed peaceful gracious disagreement tinged with humor. I do know in this world I see in part, but hesitate to go with what does contradict the outlines of the dim image I do know and experience.
I mistakenly removed Caitlin's comment trying to remove one of my own (it wasn't even on this thread!) So sorry, Caitlin!
Here's what she wrote:
It is lovely to see Sophia set forth so clearly. She has been with us for such a long time that the ecclesial mental reservation really falls over. I would also point to the Hindu sense of the power of Devi Shakti, the Mother Power that is venerated by all, holds a similar and central place to Sophia, only without all the hoo ha. If only the West understood aspectual deity, instead of going into a hissy fit every time anyone experiences the divine wisdom as a feminine power - even Jesus recognized this power.
The character of God’s Sophia/wisdom is personified in Jewish scripture as having a womb. Later, in inter-testimental work like the Sophia of Solomon - God’s wisdom is personified as female and with an individual identity and personality. By the middle of the first Christian century St Paul was telling us that Christ became Sophia ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ). And by the time Irenaeus published Against Heresies in 180 the Valentinian Christians already had a complex mythology of Sophia and her role in the Christian story first completely unpacked in one gnostic gospel - The Secret Book of John.
In Ephesians St Paul describes gnosis as a deliverance of Sophia and what the KJV calls Prudence.
Later writers didn’t provide sophiology to Christians - Essenes and early Valentinian Christians developed that themselves - some before Christ was even born.
I’m well aware that Eastern Orthodox Church has reappropriated concepts and innovations from Valentinian Christians like trinitarianism and apostolic succession, and obfuscated their history - going so far as to hire quasi gnostic Youtube disinfo marketers to further muddy the waters as to what’s actually going on in academia re the early Christians and their documents. Meanwhile - EO’s bulldog David Bentley Hart puts his own name on the cover of the New Testament , tells Christians to ignore the Gnostic texts, then years later publishes his own “Gnostic novel”.
I mistakenly removed Caitlin's comment trying to remove one of my own (it wasn't even on this thread!) So sorry, Caitlin!
Here's what she wrote:
It is lovely to see Sophia set forth so clearly. She has been with us for such a long time that the ecclesial mental reservation really falls over. I would also point to the Hindu sense of the power of Devi Shakti, the Mother Power that is venerated by all, holds a similar and central place to Sophia, only without all the hoo ha. If only the West understood aspectual deity, instead of going into a hissy fit every time anyone experiences the divine wisdom as a feminine power - even Jesus recognized this power.
The insights of Valentin Tomberg's Our Mother prayer adds essential elements to Sophian mythology: that the world's temptation has led the Mother into darkness, a tragedy and of immense pain to the Father, but that remembering the Mother and fighting against temptation can help to deliver all beings from the evil of her separation.
I pray the Our Mother prayer daily. It’s such a gift.
I was thinking of your translation from German of an autobiography or biography of the unknown author
Yes, you're thinking of Michael Frensch's four volume series on Tomberg, two of which were biographies. Alas, there was talk of translating the biographies, but it didn't come to fruition. I wouldn't be able to take it up. Perhaps James Wetmore would. He and Michael Martin are good friends as Angelico has been publishing Michael's books. Hope all is well in Vancouver.
Voice of Wisdom. Did the book you translated on Tomberg ever get published and where is it available?
David, I remember now that Harrie Salman has written a biography of Tomberg published by Angelico in 2022 -- Valentin Tomberg and the Ecclesia Universalis: A Biography. I haven't seen it but it has some good reviews. Harrie has been an active member of the Tomberg working group in Europe.
Thank you for that information as I know Harrie is actively involved in many workshops in Scandinavia especially with Robert Powell. I deeply appreciate your spiritual book on nutrition for lack of better words to describe it, and all the other work you are doing That is much appreciated and blessings to you.
David, are you thinking of the essay on the Ten Commandments in the Covenant of the Heart book, later republished as Lazarus, Come Forth? James Wetmore with Angelico Press has now published a new translation of all the essays in the book. I haven't seen it, but know he worked hard to correct all of the errors in Covenant/Lazarus, of which there were many. I have published a book on spirituality and nutrition -- The Yogi Diet, Spirituality and the Question of Vegetarianism -- that draws on both Steiner and Tomberg. I hope to complete two more related books. I'm now working on Mother Cow, but slowly.
In my recent 2 part Notes of Aug 5 I published a discussion about Alexandria which included the roots of Sophia in Christian thought. An addendum to your excellent essay,
https://substack.com/@dsreif/note/c-64453239
Great note!
You're probably familiar with David Bentley Hart's book *Tradition and Apocalypse*, right? He talks about the relative and ultimately arbitrary definition of what different churches have long called "Tradition" in much the same way that you are here.
I didn't know that--until a friend of mine read this and told me the same thing!
Glad to know David gets things right once in a while. 😅
He sure is a trip, sometimes. I’m pretty sure that his deity doesn’t have genitalia. . . .
In the "Bridge" lectures (14), Steiner speaks of the modern parallel between Osiris and Isis, and Christ and Sophia. "What was killed was not thrown into the Nile, like Osiris, and then later buried in the earth, but instead the Isis being, or divine wisdom, killed by Lucifer, was transplanted into cosmic space." And: "...we can find this Isis in her true form spread out in the beauty of the cosmos." And: "This Isis shines towards us from the cosmos in an aura of many luminous colours..."
I've been wrestling with this for a while now. It feels true, but I can't quite say how. Lots of this lecture feels very Blakeian though. How about: "We must set out to work on Luciferic science and seek the coffin of Isis there"?
Sorry to quote lots, but I could lift almost any sentence and it rings with power. "We do not lack Christ. What we lack is the Isis of Christ, the Sophia of Christ."
You're clearly far wider read than me, Michael. Are you able to shed any light on this stuff?
I like those lectures too. I think Steiner is speaking out of imagination there--and it's not exactly easy to follow him because we want to instinctively contextualize it within what we know. Steiner is like Blake or Boehme in that to understand any of them, you need to learn a brand new language--and most people don't have the energy! Especially these days. Anyway, I think he's right. One way to think about "killed by Lucifer," for me anyway, is to think that the sophianic is obscured by our egocentricity. But, as usual with Steiner, his imaginations also work on multiple layers. Hopefully I didn't muddy thing any more!
Ha ha, yes and no! I've been reading Steiner for years, so I hope I'm at least acclimatized to his language. I think you're wrong in suggesting he was trying to write poetry, however. He was trying to write science, with clearly defined concepts. So Lucifer was a Being, not a metaphor for anything - and presumably Sophia too. What I was specifically wondering about though was his notion of Sophia (Isis) being cast into the heavens. Christ is now in and of the Earth, but Sophia is no longer. Does anything in Blake or Boehme chime with this idea?
Sorry...I was not suggesting he was writing poetry. But he was writing out of spiritual imagination (the way he understood it). I agree about Lucifer--but the way he speaks of Lucifer is in how he tries to influence us. I had a dream decades ago when Steiner told me: "You think you understand Lucifer and Ahriman, but you don't. The way it works is Lucifer seduces people and then delivers them to Ahriman." I eventually understood that he meant something like Lucifer promising freedom, but handing it over the Ahriman and the freedom becomes slavery. A good example, I think, is the trans thing or even the Covid vaccines: people are promised freedom ("You can finally be who you truly are!" "You'll be able to travel!"). But then they find out they're infertile or just signed up for a medical subscription service that would last for the rest of their lives.
I don't think Sophia is cast into the heavens. I think it works by a kind of etheric reversal: we think Sophia is in exile, but it's really we who are in exile.
On the other hand, as much as I love Steiner, I am not afraid to disagree with him from time to time. (I'd drop an emoji right now, but I'm on my laptop and not my phone so no Ahrimanic emojis are available.)
Yes, definitely the trans thing. It's like the Archons - is that your terminology? - are tempting us with stuff we're just not ready for. No wonder the young are so enamoured. And one world government? - an end to nationalistic division? What could feel more right, from a certain perspective?
That's an interesting take on the 'Sophia in exile' thing. I'm not actually sure what you mean, to be honest. But whether Sophia is exiled or whether we have been exiled from Sophia, the results are manifest.
Steiner wrong? How could you think it?😅 Well, he ain't the Pope - but still, I'm kind of fixated with his ideas in Bridge lecture 14. They've got a hold of me. Especially his notion of 'fluorescent heavens' and linking it with Goethe's colour theory. And was hoping there were parallels in other writers, but I guess not.
There could be parallels. I'm sure they'll show up if there are.
Always keep searching!
Classic Martin.
Luke 7:35 “Wisdom is proved right by her children”. I must contradict what appears to be your complete dismissal of Chrisitan Tradition as something relative. The same logic could be used about the traditions that you are teaching about Our Lady. The only thing arbitrary about any tradition is our experience of it. Our Lord tried to teach the religious elite this in Luke 7. They didn’t get it. They did not have the proper experience of tradition. They resisted this experience, they resisted her. Nothing has changed. Those that are her children do not resist her. Those that do have proven whose seed that they are (Gen. 3:15). It’s that simple. Even if we tried to resist her out of fear and ignorance, as a loving mother, she remains calling us back to her.
...and I'm not saying it's relative so much as I'm saying it's contingent
I ain't dimissin' nuthin'. lol. But what I am saying is "How do you know the tradition is the tradition?" What's the tradition that came before the tradition? I think we need to end up deconstructing the received idea of what tradition is--which is a good thing in my opinion.
I have had and continue to have very clear experience of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I just don’t get this Sophia stuff that means so much to you. Never encountered anything like it. Like some sort of Quadrinity. I always thought Christ was the wisdom of God in action. When I encountered Mary once it was a human presence, not some Uber Spiritual Being. I probably need a barebones, didactic,simple explanation of Sophiology to wrap my head around what you are saying.
As you'll see as I get toward the end, I think we see or feel or sense what we're conditioned (not necessarily in a bad way) to see. But Sophiology is pretty simple and straightforward. I hope.
I guess I am a New Testament kind of guy, conditioned by its contingency. I get the impression you see it partially as an after product of a censorship, an incomplete tradition. In its imaginal realm this cosmic Sophia is not clearly encountered as far I can see unless you squeeze it into the Holy Spirit. Stephen filled with the Holy Spirit sees the glory of God with Jesus standing by him. The Trinitarian revelation in the baptism of Jesus, I could go on to more Trinitarian sendings and feelings in the NT that have no clear feeling or sensing of what you are talking about. So the NT is a limited conditioned tradition but not necessarily in a bad way? The writers being a product of a conditioning? A viewpoint you are welcome to have - I aim to practice friendship with all and when needed peaceful gracious disagreement tinged with humor. I do know in this world I see in part, but hesitate to go with what does contradict the outlines of the dim image I do know and experience.
I mistakenly removed Caitlin's comment trying to remove one of my own (it wasn't even on this thread!) So sorry, Caitlin!
Here's what she wrote:
It is lovely to see Sophia set forth so clearly. She has been with us for such a long time that the ecclesial mental reservation really falls over. I would also point to the Hindu sense of the power of Devi Shakti, the Mother Power that is venerated by all, holds a similar and central place to Sophia, only without all the hoo ha. If only the West understood aspectual deity, instead of going into a hissy fit every time anyone experiences the divine wisdom as a feminine power - even Jesus recognized this power.
I was thinking of your translation of either a biography or autobiography on the unknown author
The character of God’s Sophia/wisdom is personified in Jewish scripture as having a womb. Later, in inter-testimental work like the Sophia of Solomon - God’s wisdom is personified as female and with an individual identity and personality. By the middle of the first Christian century St Paul was telling us that Christ became Sophia ( 1 Corinthians 1:30 ). And by the time Irenaeus published Against Heresies in 180 the Valentinian Christians already had a complex mythology of Sophia and her role in the Christian story first completely unpacked in one gnostic gospel - The Secret Book of John.
In Ephesians St Paul describes gnosis as a deliverance of Sophia and what the KJV calls Prudence.
Later writers didn’t provide sophiology to Christians - Essenes and early Valentinian Christians developed that themselves - some before Christ was even born.
So they say, right? That's the interpretive tradition.
When your so-called ‘apostolic succession’ leads back to a disciple, not an apostle - ewe know you’re amongst the blind being led by the blind.
Christ had 13 students and 72 apostles. Gnostic Christians followed an actual apostle.
I’m well aware that Eastern Orthodox Church has reappropriated concepts and innovations from Valentinian Christians like trinitarianism and apostolic succession, and obfuscated their history - going so far as to hire quasi gnostic Youtube disinfo marketers to further muddy the waters as to what’s actually going on in academia re the early Christians and their documents. Meanwhile - EO’s bulldog David Bentley Hart puts his own name on the cover of the New Testament , tells Christians to ignore the Gnostic texts, then years later publishes his own “Gnostic novel”.
What a bunch of nephillim parasite clowns.
I mistakenly removed Caitlin's comment trying to remove one of my own (it wasn't even on this thread!) So sorry, Caitlin!
Here's what she wrote:
It is lovely to see Sophia set forth so clearly. She has been with us for such a long time that the ecclesial mental reservation really falls over. I would also point to the Hindu sense of the power of Devi Shakti, the Mother Power that is venerated by all, holds a similar and central place to Sophia, only without all the hoo ha. If only the West understood aspectual deity, instead of going into a hissy fit every time anyone experiences the divine wisdom as a feminine power - even Jesus recognized this power.
...and I'm not saying it's relative so much as I'm saying it's contingent
Thanks, Caitlin! I get into that a little in one of the next parts. Stay tuned!